A thread of discussion with MARROW & friends concerning Rob Bell's book, LOVE WINS

Alright. Let's stop quoting what others have to say about Rob Bell; everyone has their own agenda for writing as they do. What do YOU say? How do YOU read it? READ THE BOOK and comment on what is written therein given the context of THE WHOLE BOOK. Picking and choosing just the provocative parts is to take intellectual cheapshots. The thing that gets me upset is that just quoting articles can merely be provocative without being productive. I really wonder how many of Bell's critics have real relationships with others different from themselves, others who do not share their worldview, others who challenge how they think.

Let me be very clear - I am not a Rob Bell fan and will agree that his way of communicating sure does appear to contradict traditional evangelicalism, even going so far as to seem unorthodox concerning Biblical Christianity itself. BUT READ THE BOOK and see for yourself how he gets it right. Then you can criticize where he goes wrong in what he writes. THAT would be worth a MARROW discussion, rather than these second-hand musings by writers with who-knows-what agendas. I will be glad to submit everything I have written concerning the Rob Bell book, LOVE WINS, to MARROW for criticism. BUT AT LEAST I HAVE READ THE BOOK!

The following has a collection of my comments excerpted from just one thread of discussion on FACEBOOK:

I was not so sure I wanted to spend my time on Rob Bell, mostly because I did not like the hipper than thou vibes I got from the products put out by him. A friend, however, asked me to join a group of others to take a look at his book, LOVE WINS, and participate in a theological discussion. After reading the his book, I thought that perhaps Rob Bell was trying to emphasize that God's love is boundless and that it is us who set boundary markers which God Himself proves to be graciously willing to move beyond. We have become too much conformed to this world and our minds have thus failed to become renewed by transformative cooperation with the Holy Spirit and others in the Body of Christ. We forget that who gets to heaven is God's call rather than ours. We are to represent God's love, yet it is a wonder that any "glimpse" of the Kingdom can be seen in our dysfunctional relationships with others. This makes Heaven Hellish.

There is a great quote on p182: “Let's be very clear, then: we do not need to be rescued from God. God is the one who rescues us from death, sin, and destruction. God is the rescuer. This is crucial for our peace …” Bell, decrying “the gospel of the goats” that shrivels one's imagination, goes on to write, “We shape our God, and then our God shapes us. A distorted understanding of God, clung to with white knuckles and fierce determination, can leave a person outside the party, mad about a goat that was never gotten, without the thriving life Jesus insists is right here, all around us, all the time.” This brings to mind the concept of “God-image,” that way we imagine God to be that drives our theology.

God has willed that we be His Body, presenting His Loving Truth to the world. We have at our disposal for this divine representation our own human bodies as the means we manage to communicate with others, be it verbally or otherwise. Through this bodily communication we create relationships, hoping we are cooperating with the Holy Spirit in doing so, depending on God's intervening grace to compensate for our shortcomings. By the revealed Word of God do we calibrate our communicative skills. God's revelation and our communication act in collaboration to make God present to others.

Each of us is accountable for the relationships that we create in living with others. Even children are held accountable according to their maturity – if Suzy slaps Sammy, then Suzy's mommy holds Suzy accountable for that slap, teaching Suzy in the process about right relationship so to mitigate the possible consequences of the slap. One would hope that Suzy's mommy is wise enough to be loving in her correction (choosing not, for example, to immediately behead Suzy for her transgression). Thus does Suzy learn how humans are to live in right relationship with one another and by extension, with God.

One of the most compelling things in Bell's book is on on p169-70: "Hell is being at the party. That's what makes it so hellish. It's not an image of separation, but one of integration." God that “only He knows the heart of a person.” His knowledge is absolute and His judgment is sure – if the desire of one's heart is to be with God, then God will act to make it so. However, if one desires otherwise, how does God to act to redirect one's wayward desire? God woos us with the love He manifests in Christ Jesus. Our response to His wooing determines whether our destination will be Heaven or Hell. What seems to disturb a number of us is that God is so promiscuous in His wooing – Rob Bell seems to be making this point in chapter 6. God really wants everyone to respond, to want Him as much as He wants us.

There is no too much with God. “The Spirit is given without measure” according to Acts (I think). We cannot comprehend how much God loves us and what He is willing to do to win our hearts to Him. I do not mean, in using “promiscuous,” to highlight the sexual wantonness associated with promiscuity, but rather the non-selectiveness in regard to any single class or person: indiscriminate – not marked by fine distinctions. The use is intended to be positive, not negative; consider God as the one who chooses not to say “No!” (cue music from the musical OKLAHOMA! “I’m just the God who won't say no ...”) According to 2 Corinthans 1:19-20 – “For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, ... was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.”

In Acts 15;10 we read: “He made no distinction between us and them.” It is we who are the ones who make that distinction, seemingly so ready to divide "us" from "them." We are the ones who say, “No!” We rashly judge others without first wisely considering how God judges us with justice AND mercy. We write people off using our own version of “the book of deeds” (see Revelation 20:11-15) without ever referring to the hope proffered by the “Book of Life.” Would that we rather imitate Christ Jesus in how He confronted the woman caught in adultery (John 8:10-11) – Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.” Consider Romans 8:1 – “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Let that be the Gospel we preach, holding out the hope of Heaven rather than hollering about the horror of Hell.

Yet another thread of discussion follows (initiated by my brother on his FACEBOOK page):Nick

‎"And it is by His authority and His Word I choose to stake my life; not that of Rob Bell, who in the end -- despite undoubtedly earning earthly wealth and fame for doing so -- has accomplished nothing more than adding the latest chapter to the sorry text of humanism.."

Rob Bell goes off the deep end (OneNewsNow.com)

www.onenewsnow.com

A few years ago I overheard some friends talking about a new minister named Rob Bell. They were watching some of his videos online and when I asked what they were doing, they told me...before following it up with, "But we don't think you'd probably care for him too much."

Carol
We have been using the videos to spark discussions, and were really disappointed he went universalist.

Jeff
He didn't go Universalist recently.

Chris
According to Rob Bell's theology, Good Friday and Easter are meaningless. To take a universalist position includes many implications that Bell and his type do not come out and state (in fact they will state the opposite) but their position and style insinuate. For example, if there is an opportunity for salvation outside of this life, then what is the point of the Cross and Resurrection? Bell's theology has all of the hallmarks of a false teacher, that being the eventual denial of the Cross. Even Satan quoted scripture in a manipulative manner when he tempted Jesus in the desert. Bell's theology and approach to this subject are exactly like Satan's. It is meant to create doubt about the very essence of our faith, which is the Cross and Resurrection. I could write a book about this, so I better stop.

Hebrews 9:26-27

Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

Craig
Have any of you actually read Rob Bell's book? I am not trying be an apologist for Bell, but I do think that he would deny your accusations against his orthodoxy. I've commented elsewhere about this, but let me repeat the gist of what I wrote reflecting on what I think Bell intended: The Gospel is good news for the living and our presentation of the Gospel too often dwells on death rather than life (especially our triumphalist "us" vs. "them" attitude), making God's love look like doom rather than delight. The way we've made the Gospel sound too often sounds something like this: "God loves you. Go to Hell."

The death of Christ on the Cross opened the way for all of us to live with Him in Resurrection power. The just God is merciful and always ready to forgive NOW (the only time we have). If we do not communicate that overwhelming love, we are not speaking/living the truth. We must be wise in what we say and do in the world lest our our words and actions contradict the way God's Spirit chooses to work among us through His Word.

Heaven is the realm of God - none of us have a say in how He reigns in His own realm. However, we have the priviledge, because of the Cross of Christ, to interceed on behalf of others, praying for their salvation. How do we spend our time instead? Howling for their condemnation! Hmmm ... rather than imitating the Advocate we have in Heaven, it appears that we are emulating the Accuser in Hell, doing the work of Satan rather letting the Spirit work through us to love others as Christ loved us.

Evangelicals who act as though the verdict is theirs to pronounce should rather identify themselves as dysangelical, for it is not good news but bad. Only God in Christ gets to make the Last Judgment on anyone!

Chris
This is from TIME.

"When we get to what happens when we die, we don't have any video footage," says Bell. "So let's at least be honest that we are speculating, because we are." He is quick to note, though, that his own speculation, while unconventional, is not unprecedented. "At the center of the Christian tradition since the first church," Bell writes, "have been a number who insist that history is not tragic, hell is not forever, and love, in the end, wins and all will be reconciled to God."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2065080,00.html#ixzz1KI2JmliH

Is Hell forever? Are we only to speak of parts of the Bible? Are you suggesting you agree that since we have no videotape that we can't tell for sure if "Love Wins" after death, and therefore it is possible to go to Heaven outside of believing in Jesus in this life? I also completely disagree with your suggestions that to call out false teaching for what it is, means that those people are judgmental finger wagging condemnation spewing emulators of Satan. No one that I am aware of in this conversation is passing judgment (meaning heaven and hell) on anyone. That judgment is entrusted to Jesus. But that judgment does exist. Hell does exist. To just "ask questions" and create doubt about subjects that the Bible clearly addresses, creates issues of credibility for the entire Bible, including Christ on the Cross. The issue here is not "getting" to pass judgment and spew fire and brimstone, but the veracity and infallibility of the Word.

Jeff
Personally, I am trying to live out Paul's admonition to Timothy in 1 Tim 4:16 where he says,

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

because I believe we are living in the times Paul talks about in 1 Tim 4:3,4. It is not a lack of love to point out false teaching - we are instructed to do so, to confront, correct it, and hopefully win that person back to the truth as Paul did Peter.

Chris
Agree completely with Jeff. However we must always be careful to be not to be come the Church in Ephesus as addressed here (Craig, I think this is what you are intending to address, those that are only making various judgment but are without love)

Revelation 2:

2 I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Sam
This statement by Bell speaks volumes:

I have long wondered if there is a massive shift coming in what it means to be a Christian. Something new is in the air.

God's definition of a Christian has not changed since Christ first said "“If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." Luke 9:23 Of course when the spirit of antichrist that envelopes the earth at the end of the age is present, as now is upon us, the definition changes not because God changed it but because those not led by the Holy Spirit will gladly listen to doctrines of devils. Also if Ron is right, Christ's warnings about plucking eyes out and cutting off limbs to avoid Hell Fire were more than extreme!

Nick
We take heart attacks more seriously than Hell. Can you imagine stopping traffic to perform spiritual CPR?

Okay, Mr. Bell. I take it you are married? Imagine presenting your proposal of marriage to your future wife the way you present Jesus' proposal of eternal life to others?

Jeff
John 3:17 is just as true as John 3:16 and it is not unloving to share both of these truths.

Craig
Jeff informed me, by way of comment on my own FACEBOOK wall, that Rob Bell is deeply influenced by Bruce McLaren's "emergent" approach to theology and hermeneutics. This I find troubling as that approach, it seems to me, so readily accepts worldly assumptions about Scripture and the Church which I believe are unacceptable. This is why I do not mean to defend Rob Bell; however, I do want to defend the title of his book, LOVE WINS, because it is true. The question to be discussed is, "How is it true that LOVE WINS?" Reading through the whole book is something everyone on this thread should do - not just to pick out the parts where Bell is wrong, but to benefit from the many places in which what Bell writes gets it right.

"Is Hell forever?"
How do you read it? I've been taught to understand Hell as a place of eternal damnation, of everlasting punishment, of being cast out of the presence of God forever. I have yet to come to a full understanding of what this means.

"Are we only to speak of parts of the Bible?"
The problem is that we can ONLY speak of parts of the Bible. Biblical theology [according to what I learned at the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary] is contained within the framework of Christ, Canon, and Community; much lies within that frame that no human system of thought can comprehend (thus the challenge of Systematic Theology).

"Are you suggesting you agree that since we have no videotape that we can't tell for sure if 'Love Wins' after death, and therefore it is possible to go to Heaven outside of believing in Jesus in this life?"
I am not suggesting that I agree for I think this is a stupid way to argue. I am suggesting that we need to be more careful in communicating what is meant by "going to Heaven" and by "believing in Jesus" and other religious phrases that mean nothing to many who are just confused about what Scripture actually has to teach. The problem is that communication is just what we are not doing - if it was, then that communication would create relationships in which further communication can take place as we interact with one another. Rather than communicating, we often are merely talking past one another, reporting rather than responding, trying to win an argument rather than hoping to find agreement.

We are called to live at peace with all people, if possible. Without the Spirit of Truth leading us, such peace is impossible. While we are in the world, let us love those interacting in the world with us, creating right relationships through Christlike communication, forming friendships when enmity was formerly expected. Jesus did it and we are to follow his example.

Rick
I take it that some of you think the teaching of the good Mr. Bell cannot be safely ignored? I have no interest in reading his book or entertaining the idea of no Heaven or Hell anymore than entertaining the idea of no Resurrection. Those things are quite real for me - if a man's Faith means anything. Some will say this makes me closed-minded, too dogmatic. But certain things in our Faith are settled - quite, and we cannot go back without undoing everything. It seems oxymoronic but it is not - dogma is most freeing.

Nick
Bell poses absolutely no threat to my beliefs so I am with Rick on that score.
My concern is his influence especially upon Christians within the church - that so many would even be following him to begin with, let alone about this book's topic, astounds me! They barely spend time studying their own copy of God's Word let alone the amazing discoveries in God's world supporting it. It is this popular aspect that leads me to suspect Bell as much as anything he says. They should first engage the great questions before tackling some transient upstart trying to repackage old heresies settled long long ago.

Sam ‎
"Love Wins" only if the "Love" we are talking about is the Love of Jesus! The Love 'of money,' the love of 'unrighteousness,' the love of fame and loving the list of bad things enumerated in Galatians 5:19-21 Will NOT win! On the other hand 2 Peter 1:5-11 gives a list that when done “Love Wins” always as 2 Peter 1:10(NLT) assures “Do these things, and you will never fall away.”

Chris
I do wonder if the supporters of Bell or the "open minded" readers would read a book called "Judgment Wins." It seems to me the real issue at hand here is the struggle of many to reconcile the many attributes of Jesus; the primary attributes in question being his love versus his sovereign nature and just judgment. You could absolutely write a book exactly like Bell's and inverse the premise. Instead of arguing how Love Wins, and questioning how God "flips a switch," at death and becomes harsh and unloving, why not make the argument that judgment wins, manipulating scripture through selective admission, and making the case that love fails, and judgment wins? I am pretty sure the people complaining about others crying heresy, would freak out.

My point is that to embrace one part of Jesus' nature and to claim Biblical clarity about it, that being love, and then to question another part of his nature, that being just and sovereign, and then state Biblical confusion, is an inconsistent, prideful, and dishonest approach. The honest approach would be a confession of attempting to define Jesus to a point that we are comfortable, and not receiving who He fully is. This is not easy and is a constant challenge. It ultimately involves the complete submission of all we are to Him. The prideful approach is something to humbly repent of. So many people think that the God of OT (think Joshua) is totally different than Jesus, and therefore can’t receive Him. Once we understand God’s just nature, and the depth of our depravity, it in turn gives so much more depth to our understanding of His love. The apostles and Jesus were crystal clear that rejection of Jesus, was to choose his wrath. Jesus spared me the wrath I was due as I was dead in my sins, the wrath he himself will carry out by his judgment.

I would point you all to what Paul writes in Romans 9:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

All of us in our pride and sin do not enjoy ideas like correction, rebuke, and repentance for us, and the judgment of those we have loved or love, but have rejected Jesus. It is a heartbreaking thing to consider a loved one is in Hell. But I would challenge you to embrace this aspect of God as a revealing component of HIS LOVE and greatness. I am just now learning to DESIRE His correction and rebuke. I am just now getting to a point where I am truly open to the call of repentance, and thank the Holy Spirit for conviction. That is just another way he shows his love for me. As for Hell, and everlasting punishment of those that reject Jesus, they are without excuse. We must be reverent in our questioning. I would point all of you to read God’s response to Job.

The root of this issue is not Rob Bell, and it is not even his false teaching, it is people choosing the Woodstock Jesus, instead of the Biblical Jesus. Jesus’ love is deeper than the deepest sea, and His judgment is a part of that love. Because his ways are higher and better than ours, and we struggle with understanding His nature, do we then have the right to demand an explanation from Him or else we will pick and choose what attributes He will posses in our understanding? Peter thought he understood better than Jesus and even rebuked him. Anyone remember what Jesus said to him?

Love to all, and Happy Easter. Although we disagree on some things, we all agree on Jesus is Alive!

Craig
TRYING to repackage old heresies? That's rough, Nick. To call a teaching heretical is one thing, but to attribute heretical intent to the teacher is another thing altogether. This crosses the line. It is frustrating, I agree, that Bell will not make an explicit statement about Hell; for example, the following is typical of how Bell writes:

Will everybody be saved,
or will some perish apart from God forever because of their choices?

Those are questions, or more accurately, those are tensions we are free to leave fully intact. We don't need to resolve them ore answer them because we can't, and so we simply respect them, creating space for the freedom that love requires.

Hmmmm .... Such irresolution is bad hermeneutics, but is it heresy?

As for me (who some of you may fear is in danger of heresy), let me confess here my own position:
I do not delight in the dangers of Hell but the promise of Heaven. Does God who is Holy want us unholy humans with Him? Yes (amazing grace!), which is why the Gospel proclaims that God's love became Incarnate in Christ Jesus to make friends with those who were otherwise His enemies. Do we want to be with God? That question is significant because I think it determines how we respond to the wooing of God's Spirit - hard-heartedness will pave our way to Hell. If the desire of my heart is to be with God, than that desire will be fulfilled as the Spirit works in me to will and to do God's good pleasure - beginning with repentance at the foot of the Cross and continuing in obedience as I follow the way of Christ Jesus. Intersecting my path will be many others to whom I am called to communicate the good news that there is one true way to life, inviting them to go along that way with me. In this living with others I learn what God's love is all about and others can learn how God is love. The relationships I create with others (the One Other who is God in Christ and the many others with whom I interact) take place as a performance to be reviewed by God as recorded in the Book of Rememberance, that Book which shall be opened on the Last Day when our eternal destiny will be justly determined. If my name is written in that Book of Life, than eternal life in the glorious Presence of God is mine; if not (my name having been blotted out), then I am doomed to death in Hell, the place for all that is unholy. Heaven holds a place only for the holiness.

Jeff
Has anyone ever been "intentionally" heretical? Just wondering.......

I will say, Craig, that Bell does lean on Origen a great deal to give historical foundation to his views - but I don't think genus being intentionally heretical - it's just a natural byproduct if his view of Scripture

Bob
Great thread of discussion...it is so simple for me. I follow Jesus...I follow the One who went into hell and who spoke His infallible words concerning hell. That's it, period. We need to pray for those who have wondered away....Happy Easter....Jesus Is Indeed Alive!

By the way, I wrote a personal letter to Rob Bell and have yet to hear back from him.

Craig
Bob is doing it right! I pray that your letter will provoke a personal response from Rob Bell - such considerate communication is much more Christ-like than the gossipy sniping to which many others have reverted in "discussing" Bell's admittedly controversial book. Without communication, community is impossible. The Body of Christ must be committed to communicating the love of Christ to one another lest we devolve into divisive factions of "us" and "them."

Jeff
Craig - I am not sure I understand your underlying point at all. It is clear to me that you don't agree with Bell and are trying to relate his thoughts to how you see the Christian walk. I understand your concern that we not separate ourselves from non-believers and make it, at best, an adversarial relationship. However, when it comes to standing against false teachers who claim to be of the faith - we have no choice but to oppose them. In fact, 1 John 2:19 puts it exactly in an us versus them context. Love is not simply an absence of conflict, but it is iron sharpening iron in love. When it comes to sharing the gospel - it is not an absence of the concept of God as love that keep many from yielding their lives to Christ. It is because they have no concept that they are a slave to sin and are in need of a Savior who can free them from eternal death. All through the New Testament we see the call to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Peter's cry at the day of Pentecost when he said, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation" still resonates today - but so many preachers have abandoned this truth. We would never say to someone like Peter said to Simon the Sorcerer - "For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin." You can read the web sites of New Age churches, black magic groups, cults, and many others and see that they believe God is love. What they don't believe is in the reality of sin and that God's love can only be entered into through the cross of Christ (which I know you believe). There is indeed an "us" and a "them". We are alive - solely through his grace and mercy. Those who have not surrendered to his grace remain objects of his wrath - it is our duty to Christ to tell them how to escape this wrath isn't it? I don't mean in a way that makes it seem we are superior - Ephesians 2 makes it clear we have nothing about which to boast. So.....all that to say that I am confused about your underlying point.

Nick
Gossipy sniping?! As a physician I feel obliged to warn my patients if they are buying somebody's snakeoil cure for or misdiagnosis of their dread disease. How much more then do I feel the urge to call 'em like I see 'em in matters spiritual. And I seriously doubt Mr Bell would agree with your view, which you so well expressed. In fact, that is the very message he is trying to wriggle away from.

Craig
The nut to be cracked in Bell's argument about Hell is his understanding of the Hebrew word "olam" (found on pp. 92-93 of LOVE WINS) :

But "forever" is not really a category the biblical writers used.

The closest the Hebrew writers come to a word for "forever" is the word olam. ... It's a versatile, pliable word, in most occurrences referring to a particular period of time.

So when we read "eternal punishment," it's important that we don't read categories and concepts into a phrase that aren't there. Jesus isn't talking about forever as we think of forever. Jesus may be talking about something else, which has all sorts of implications for our understandings of what happens after we die ...

To summarize, then, we need a loaded, volatile, adequately violent, dramatic, serious word to describe when we reject the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us. We need a word that refers to the big, wide, terrible evil that comes from the secrets hidden deep within our hearts all the way to the massive, society-wide collapse and chaos that comes when we fail to live in God's world God's way.

And for that, the word "hell" works quite well. Let's keep it.

Jeff
Well put - hard to do thoroughly with Bell though because, as you pointed out, ge exhibits a certain slipperiness to some of his positions - a trait of some postmodern theologians.


Craig
It may be slanderous gossip to speak of Bell as a heretic if it is merely our misunderstanding that provokes such an accusation. Consider the Latin theologians misunderstanding of how Greek theologians used the word "prosopon" - the Son is merely a "mask" of God rather than a "person" at one with God - this misunderstanding leading to charges of "Heresy!" Rather than resorting to calling another person, who confesses to be a Christian, a "heretic," would it not be more fruitful to pinpoint where the teaching seems to differ, then continue the conversation from that point?

As for what I mean about "us" and "them" - it is imperative that we remember that all humanity is "us" (unless you are hyper-calvinist and believe radically in an elect "us" that are the chosen sheep distinct from a cursed "them" who are goats unworthy of inclusion in God's fold). All of "us" are born into the world that God loved so much. Those in heaven are "they" who can look on the face of God and live. The Word became flesh to recreate "us" in order to join "them" in being present with God. We then live as both "us" and "them" in the here and now, the kingdom already-not-yet come, in the world yet not of it. Because of the work of the Spirit through Christ Jesus, God makes no distinction between "us" and "them" as He is willing to pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh!

Nick
God prepared a place for Lucifer and his fallen rebel angels and it here to which all reference to Hell and those who choose to reject Christ must ultimately refer. Hiding behind post-modern labels doesn't work as real scholarship nor for common(sense) people. Besides, I think Bell is reacting against a strawman (the kind of preaching he despises faded from the scene years ago, for instance - which why a lot of his audience may be hearing about Hell for the first time - other than as a cusrew word

Craig
Strawman? The vitriol being spewed out by "brethren" such as the pastor of Westboro Baptist Church (almost a parody of itself) can be readily found in many other places, even in discussions regarding Bell's book. Let's not fall into that sort of foolishness (I confess that I have been foolish like this myself with my overuse of the word "hate" and with my intensity of expression when describing that which displeases me).

Consider 1John 2:9-11

The one who says he is in the light but still hates his fellow Christian is still in the darkness. The one who loves his fellow Christian resides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his fellow Christian is in the darkness, walks in the darkness,and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

As for "the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels" - let's look more closely at that Scripture (Matthew 25:31- 46):

Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’
Then he will answer them,‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The accursed are those who do not DO what the Lord wills to be done. Reading Bell's book, one is continually challenged to consider this very thing.

The question, of course, is whether the reader is led to realize that it is only what Christ has done that justifies us before God, that Christ alone is our righteousness, that we are dead without His resurrection power to give us life. Bell would not deny the crucial position of Christ in saving us, but he seems to want to expand our understanding of Christ in such a way as to make Him less than unique. Consider this passage from the book,

As obvious as it is, then, Jesus is bigger than any one religion.

He didn't come to start a new religion, and he continually disrupted whatever conventions or systems or establishments that existed in his day. He will always transcend whatever cages and labels are created to contain and name him, especially the one called "Christianity."

Within this proper, larger understanding of just what the Jesus story even is, we see that Jesus himself, again and again, demonstrates how seriously he takes his role in saving and rescuing and redeeming not just everything, but everybody. ...

Jesus is supracultural. He is present within all cultures, and yet outside all cultures. He is for all people, and yet he refuses to be co-opted or owned by any one culture.

That includes any Christian culture. Any denomination. Any church. Any theological system. We can point to him, name him, follow him, discuss him, honor him, and believe in him - but we cannot claim him to be ours any more than he's anyone else's.

Bell writes more, but this gives you the idea. I am somewhat sympathetic to what Bell has written here, but I believe Bell is mistaken if he is dismissing the significance of culture in comprehending Christ.

Culture is created from how humans communicate with one another, the product of cultivated human relationships over time. The Spirit of Christ intervenes at a certain time in the process of creating culture, and from that time begins to transform that culture being created. Christians, led by the Spirit, are called to be agents of cultural change. How can we know that the culture being created conforms to the character of Christ? It is by the Word of God found in Scripture. Thus is one's hermeneutical approach to Scripture so important, for without the wisdom of God's word, we will create a crooked culture that distorts the image of Christ.

Nick
Hey, Bell made it into the Easter sermon.
Wonder how many other mentions he got today.